Response to Tariqnelson
Tariqnelson responded to my post about urging Muslim leaders to issue fatwas against Osama bin Laden (OBL). Given the length of my response I’m posting it on the front page.
The previous Mufti of Saudi Arabia, Abdul-Aziz Ibn Baz, who died before 9/11, and other scholars condemned him by name and condemned the Hamas suicide murders on civilians (Muslim and non-Muslim) and the spreading of chaos years before 9/11
I am looking for fatwas that leave no room for taqiyya or kitman. Rather than take your word on it I would like to read the contents of their statements. Can you send me links to them?
Saudi Arabia has long been opposed to Bin Laden
Can you provide evidence that “Saudi hate literature being distributed from American mosques, and the Saudi madrasa-building in Asia has completely stopped (hat tip jihadwatch)?
And remember in Saudi Arabia, as in other places, passages in the Koran such as the notorious “Verse of the Sword” in sura 9:5 (“slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush”) is used for jihadi recruitment.
Not fans of the above people
By “people” you mean Wahhabis/Salafis, the Sunni fundamentalist Islamic movement that OBL adheres to.
but the point here is to illustrate that this was done BEFORE 9/11
I scanned the document for all OBL references and I did not see a fatwa issued against him. Where is the unequivocal condemnation of OBL’s jihad?
I did not see a single fatwa against OBL for the 9/11 terrorist attacks. The closest I saw was a single instance by Spanish Muslim leaders for the Spanish terrorist attack, but not for the 9/11 attacks. Furthermore and disappointingly they did not refute OBL’s interpretation of the Koran and Hadith. As Robert Spencer points out “until there is a REFUTATION of their arguments, their arguments will continue to be effective. Your sources have not refuted them, but ignored them”.
By the way the top link at the link you provided was written by the terrorist front group CAIR so its credibility is in serious question.
Your link does not provide evidence that a fatwa against OBL occurred.
I hate Bin Laden, Hamas, “Hizbullah” and other groups and their evil actions,
I applaud what you’ve said, but can you refute OBL’s arguments on Islamic grounds?
and other Muslims have stated as much (again, long before 9/11).
Are the other Muslims following mainstream Islamic interpretations? What are these other Muslims doing to stop the worldwide abominable terrorist acts that are continuing to be justified on Islamic grounds?
While I feel that we as Muslims have not come out strongly enough against the likes of Hamas and “Hizbullah
Indeed, and what you’ve said is a breath of fresh air. Unfortunately your feelings have not dissuaded the Muslim terrorists from continuing their jihad against the West.
UPDATE: 8/22/06 12:37am
Tariqnelson has responded in the comments section of this post. What follows is my response to him.
First off, thanks for responding.
First it seems that you do not understand the meaning of ‘fatwa’. It seems (and correct me if I am wrong) that you think that ‘fatwa’ is a death decree.
I do know what fatwa means. Here is a backgrounder for my readers. Please keep in mind that vacuous fatwas which do not condemn the Islamic extremism ideology that has spawned Islamic terrorism do not count.
[josephnadir] it is absolutely shocking that American Muslim leaders have not yet issued one [fatwa] against the enemy.
[tariqnelson] There have been several anti-Bin Laden fatwas/statements issued since long BEFORE 9/11
It appears that you are conflating fatwas with mere statements of condemnation which do not carry the weight of a religious edict.
What I’ve been looking for is a fatwa clearly and unequivocally condemning OBL for the 9/11 attacks, not a statement which does not carry the weight of an Islamic legal pronouncement. I’m willing to settle for a fatwa against OBL’s jihad against America, so feel free to find an example of that as well.
They all condemned terror attacks
A condemnation does not carry the legal weight of a fatwa. I did not find a fatwa in the link you provided.
After 9/11, many have condemned the 9/11 attacks and other attacks, including the Mufti of Saudi Arabia, who not only condemned the 9/11 attacks, but also the London bombings and every other attack. Also see this
Where are the fatwas? Recall condemnation ≠ fatwa
And likewise, for you to say that Muslims have not said anything condemning terrorism is a gross distortion
It looks like you are trying to build a straw man argument. I never said what you claim I have said.
but if you are amongst those who think genocide should be commited
Of course I am not one of those people and I would never advocate any of the evil things you mentioned.
I simply come from a perspective that while there are moderate Muslims I do not see the evidence to support that there is a moderate Islam.
You and I both know that we could similarly take verses of the Bible
First off, the sheer scale of the monstrous acts of barbarism committed in the name of Islam dwarfs that which is committed illogically in the name of Christianity. Just look at all of the cases of Muslims committing acts of terrorism around the world and the support they receive in the Muslim community. Look at the non-response the Organization of the Islamic Conference (OIC), which represent 56 Muslim states, gave when challenged to condemn all of those who kill or call upon others to kill in the name of God or religion:
—
The next morning (Friday, 18 August), Pakistan’s Ambassador Masood Khan – speaking for the OIC countries – addressed the Sub-Commission. He did not refer to our appeal that the OIC condemn: “all those who kill or call upon others to kill in the name of God or religion,” as well as an “an unambiguous condemnation of those who are defaming Islam by their calls to kill in the name of Allah.” Rather, he spoke about “the Prophet Muhammad’s (PBUH) caricatures in a Danish paper last year,” and stated: “In the recent past, terrorist attacks, or even terrorist plots, have been used as a pretext to demonize Islam and Muslims… Muslims are being dehumanized as Jews were during the inter-war years in the last century. The spectre of Islamophobia is haunting Europe.” He also stated: “The OIC believes that the existing gaps in the international law – soft or hard – to combat defamation of religions and to promote respect for each others beliefs should be stepped up.” He concluded: “In the Islamic world, endeavours are being made to wage political and ideological struggles against the forces of obscurantism and extremism. Last year in Makkah, the OIC announced its 10-year programme for the promotion and protection of human rights. It will also elaborate [an] OIC Charter on Human Rights.” There can be little doubt that any such a Charter will be conditional on Shariah law (see the 1990 Cairo Declaration on Human Rights in Islam, articles 24 and 25), in total contradiction to the 1948 Universal Declaration on Human Rights.
—
and use it [verses of the Bible] out of context
There is a very important distinction to be made between interpreting verses in a logical way versus an illogical way. There is no verse in the Bible which can taken in context logically be interpreted to commit anything remotely similar to the Muslim terrorist acts. From all appearances, from the worldwide terrorist acts committed in the name of Islam to the lack of fatwas which condemn on Islamic grounds the ideology that has spawned Islamic terrorism, the Koran’s verse of the sword in context together with the Islamic jurisprudence are being logically interpreted.
Many from the Aryan Nation and “Christian Identity use the Bible to recruit as well.
Your implicit contention that racist groups using the Bible to recruit and Muslim terrorist using Islam to recruit are akin to each other is simply not true for multiple reasons:
- There is no logical Biblical interpretation for racism
- Racist organizations are universally condemned by the Christian community
- Aryan Nation and Christian Identity is a fringe group whose number of racist acts or membership numbers do not even begin to compare to either the number Muslim terrorist acts or the number of terrorist supporters
I don’t expect you to answer for them
Thank you 
I don’t expect you to answer for Muslim terrorists either, but I wish peaceful Muslims were more successful at challenging terrorists on Islamic grounds and preventing Muslims from becoming terrorists.
[josephnadir] I scanned the document for all OBL references and I did not see a fatwa issued against him. Where is the unequivocal condemnation of OBL’s jihad?
[tariqnelson] Seems that you must have overlooked it. Here are a few
I have to ask because it seems you are now being deliberately misleading are you practicing taqiyya?
I was responding to this link which you provided as evidence of a fatwa against OBL and I still don’t see any fatwa.
The three new links you’ve provided have no fatwas whatsoever.
See above.
None of the links you’ve provided contain a fatwa. Prove me wrong if you believe otherwise. You definitely appear to be practicing taqiyya and if so it is not going to work.
There was a blizzard of condemnations, fatwas and other statements against OBL and the 9/11 attacks.
I found a single instance here of a fatwa against OBL for the Spanish terrorist attack. This is a far cry from your claim.
To say there was no comdemnation at all
I never said that. Stop building a straw man.
Most refutations are done in the Arabic language (and yes I know Arabic) and there are many entire books written refuting the Khawarij (terrorist) methodology that OBL believes in.
Please don’t take it the wrong way, but I’m not going to take your word for it. American Muslims and Muslims living in the West have a HUGE motivation to clean up their image and I would find it stunning that there are so few translations if there were so many arguments in existence. In light of this what you say is hard to swallow.
this is a translation of one small refutation of their arguments. This one was written before 9/11
You did not dispute my claim that the fatwa issued against OBL for the Spanish terrorist attack did not contain a refutation of OBL’s interpretation of the Koran or Hadith.
In these two links I see no refutation of OBL’s interpretation either.
we soundly refute them on Islamic grounds
Really? I’m very interested in these arguments. Can you point me to them?
While people such as yourself talked about last week’s plot to bomb several airplanes, one thing lost in the entire affair is that it was a Muslim who helped unravel the plot.
That is wonderful. It would be even better if other Muslims stopped issuing veiled threats in response to this Muslim terrorist plot.
Muslims are integral parts in stopping terrorist attacks from happening
I wholeheartedly agree. Furthermore, I think Muslims arguing on Islamic grounds against OBL and the rest of those who support a jihad against the West would do much to combat Muslim terrorism. In many respects the spiritual and ideological battle against these individuals is more important than the physical one.
If we declare all Muslims to be the enemy, then we will lose many allies in this fight against those that are truely evil.
I agree.
Secondly, others are refuting the arguments of the terrorists on Islamic grounds. These things need to be spread amongst the Muslims
Again I wholeheartedly agree with you brother.
It would be a huge mistake to commit complete genocide against all the Muslims
Absolutely true.
The terrorists use people like her and her statements as fodder for recruitment
That may be true, but the moral culpability lies squarely on the Muslim terrorist, not the one who used words that they disliked.
If American goes to the genocide strategy that some are calling for
This is not a real concern. No one in our government is advocating that. Furthermore, I don’t believe it will ever happen.
First it seems that you do not understand the meaning of ‘fatwa’. It seems (and correct me if I am wrong) that you think that ‘fatwa’ is a death decree. This is not correct. A fatwa is an opinion and can be given on numerous subjects from the highly complex to the mundane. So it is for all purposes a statement. As to your questions:
In my opinion, the best way to illustrate that the 9/11 attacks are not from Islam is to show you statements against terror from before those attacks happened. You have to read them in the context that this was before 9/11.
All of the men quoted in the link here have died prior to 9/11 except for one. They all condemned terror attacks that were mostly at the time performed mostly by Hamas and some by Bin Laden’s gang of bandits. After 9/11, many have condemned the 9/11 attacks and other attacks, including the Mufti of Saudi Arabia, who not only condemned the 9/11 attacks, but also the London bombings and every other attack. Also see this
If we are going to have a discussion, let’s be fair. I am not a fan of Saudi Arabia, but it would be a gross distortion for me to say that they have not condemned terrorism at all. And likewise, for you to say that Muslims have not said anything condemning terrorism is a gross distortion. If you are going to be fair, then we can have a conversation, but if you are amongst those who think genocide should be commited against all Muslims, because we are all irrational and can not be reasoned with, then obviously we have no discussion. To try to make us all complicit is ubsurd
Firstly, I am not Saudi and I don’t answer for Saudi Arabia. Nor does Saudi Arabia represent Islam and all the Muslims. Yes Makkah is there, but that does not mean that each and every Muslim has allegiance to the Saudis and is responsible for what they do.
You and I both know that we could similarly take verses of the Bible and use it out of context. Many from the Aryan Nation and “Christian Identity use the Bible to recruit as well. I don’t expect you to answer for them.
Seems that you must have overlooked it. Here are a few
Scholars say Bin Laden’s idea of jihad is out of bounds
Prominent Muslim cleric denouces Bin Laden
Those who defend Bin Laden are like him…MISGUIDED
See above. There was a blizzard of condemnations, fatwas and other statements against OBL and the 9/11 attacks. To say there was no comdemnation at all is ridiculous.
Most refutations are done in the Arabic language (and yes I know Arabic) and there are many entire books written refuting the Khawarij (terrorist) methodology that OBL believes in. You have to have some background in Islam, as this debate is taking place in house, but nonetheless, for the sake of showing you that this is indeed being done, this is a translation of one small refutation of their arguments. This one was written before 9/11. There are volumes written in Arabic refuting these people.
Absolutely. And anytime I, and many others, come across a person such as this lunatic, we soundly refute them on Islamic grounds
Many are cooperating with authorities to stop terror attacks. While people such as yourself talked about last week’s plot to bomb several airplanes, one thing lost in the entire affair is that it was a Muslim who helped unravel the plot. Muslims are integral parts in stopping terrorist attacks from happening. If we declare all Muslims to be the enemy, then we will lose many allies in this fight against those that are truely evil.
Secondly, others are refuting the arguments of the terrorists on Islamic grounds. These things need to be spread amongst the Muslims
They will be defeated. But if you declare that all of us are the enemy, then this is a big mistake. It would be a huge mistake to commit complete genocide against all the Muslims as Ann Coulter and others have called for. The terrorists use people like her and her statements as fodder for recruitment by telling common Muslims that all Americans want to wipe out all Muslims. Men, women and children, they will tell you, that Americans want all Muslims dead, dead, dead.
If American goes to the genocide strategy that some are calling for, then you will do more harm than good in this fight. “See, we told you they wanted us ALL dead”
Tariqnelson, I’ve replied in the update section of this post http://josephnadir.wordpress.com/2006/08/20/response-to-tariqnelson/
Joseph,
It seems that we are in disagreement over what a ‘fatwa’ is. As a Muslim, I can assure you that a statement from a scholar of Islam is binding and is indeed tantamount to a fatwa and IS religiously binding. I grant you that a statement from an organization is NOT NECESSARILY a fatwa (depending on whether scholars are on the board issuing the statement), but one from a scholar most certainly is.
As an example, the statements you saw translated from before 9/11 are taken from a book called (which translated from Arabic means) “Collection of fatawas”. I have the book on my shelf in Arabic. So it IS a fatwa.
So let’s review.
A statement from an organization: Not necessarily a fatwa.
A statement from a scholar: A fatwa
On the refutations, the terrorists’ arguments are given and then refuted from Qur’an and hadith. It is written for Muslims (even in English) and uses terminology (such as ‘Khawarij’, ‘ghuloo’, etc) that you are probably not familiar with. (Remember this is an inside struggle) I provided the refutation it in the ebook translation link I sent you.
Other than a definition of what a fatwa is, I think that we pretty much agree. There is a lot of insanity going on in the Muslim world that needs to be cleaned up. But this will have to be done in house. Even this book appears to say as much.
This is being done, but unfortunately this is not something that can be done overnight. It is an uphill battle and we are still having to fight against things such as the child suicide culture indoctrination that goes on in Palestine.
I want my children to grow up to be peaceful and productive members of this society just like any other reasonable person would. I do not want them indoctrinated into some irrational culture of suicide any more than you would.
It will take at least a generation to begin making a dent.
Once we begin to teach people in the Muslim world the importance of education and investment in future generations, you will slowly begin to see the insanity subside.
It will take a long time, but I am confident that it can and will be done.
Tariqnelson,
Other than the definition of what a fatwa is these were the other points I made:
• Too often after a terrorist plot occurs or is foiled Muslim organizations rush to warn us of the dangers of Islamophobia or issue vague and/or misleading condemnations of the use of violence against “innocent lives” instead of clearly and unequivocally stating their alliance with the United States in its war on Muslim terrorists.
• the notorious “Verse of the Sword” in sura 9:5 (“slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush”) is used logically for jihadi recruitment
• CAIR is a terrorist front group so its credibility is in serious question
• the sheer scale of the monstrous acts of barbarism committed in the name of Islam dwarfs that which is committed illogically in the name of Christianity
• There is no verse in the Bible which can taken in context logically be interpreted to commit anything remotely similar to the Muslim terrorist acts
• From all appearances the Koran’s verse of the sword in context together with the Islamic jurisprudence are being logically interpreted to commit acts of terrorism
• Your implicit contention that racist groups using the Bible to recruit and Muslim terrorist using Islam to recruit are akin to each other is simply not true for multiple reasons:
o There is no logical Biblical interpretation for racism
o Racist organizations are universally condemned by the Christian community
o Aryan Nation and Christian Identity is a fringe group whose number of racist acts or membership numbers do not even begin to compare to either the number Muslim terrorist acts or the number of terrorist supporters
• British Muslims issued veiled threats in response to the recent Muslim terrorist plot to blow up airlines
I would very much appreciate it if you could provide evidence for your assertion.
Not all statements from Muslim scholars are fatwas. Since your contention is that some statements by Muslim scholars are fatwas you should be able to articulate (or point me to the articulation) of the criterion one can use to distinguish between mere statements and statements that convey a fatwa.
In light of the practice of takiyya and kitman you can understand why people would be skeptical of your claim. I would very much appreciate it if you could provide evidence for your assertions.
If there is a logical argument they should be able to articulate the argument for Western audiences. Logic is language-independent and culture-independent.
Where exactly is it? Can you quote it?
Indeed.
Me too
Amen.
I agree with you. I and others have written about this from amongst the Muslims.
I agree that it is used for terror recruitment, but I disagree that it is used logically and in context by terrorists. Looked at literally, one would think that it is permissible to kill anyone anytime. That is complete non-sense.
I don’t know the inner workings of CAIR, don’t work for them and I don’t answer for them.
I have to agree on that too. But the acts commited in the name of Islam is also illogical.
There are similar verses in the bible that have been used by people throughout history. The KKK (a very religious group) used it to justify their actions against blacks, and the Native Americans were exterminated using Bible verses to justify it. Similarly there was the Spanish inquisition, the European religious wars and so forth.
And you know as well as I do that the Bible itself was used to justify colonial imperialism, slavery and racial segregation for hundreds of years. So don’t act like there was nothing done wrong in the name of Christianity in history. And just as you condemn those acts, I condemn terrorism in the name of Islam. And I reiterate that I don’t hold you responsible for those acts and don’t ask you to answer for them.
But I don’t want to get into a back and forth because it is fruitless, as this discussion is about Islam and the Muslims and not Christians.
We disagree on this. See the ebook I linked to previously. How do you explain that 1.3 billion Muslims are not slaughtering non-Muslims upon sight, but instead have non-Muslim friends and treat them well. That is total non-sense.
I did not hear about this threat. If true, then this is wrong. But I am sure there are other British Muslims who condemned these threats if they were aware of it.
I don’t believe in tuqiyyah or kitman just for the record, but I can’t make you believe me until you meet me in person and know me for some time. I know that it is practiced by some.
At any rate, anytime a scholar gives a statement on an issue, it is tantamount to a fatwa. Since you don’t want to take anyone’s word for it, I can only suggest that you go by a local mosque or an Islamic Bookstore and ask them to let you look at a copy of this translation or this one or a similar book of collection of fatwas that will give you an idea of what a fatwa is. The introduction of the books (written for new Muslims) should explain what a fatwa is. Then re-read the condemnations and you will see that they are indeed fatawas
Here is the ebook that I provided a link to that refutes the arguments of the Khawarij (Bin Laden’s sect). Remember that this is written for Muslims and uses terminology that you may not be familiar with
[...] I’ve been engaged in a debate with Tariqnelson in the comments section of this posting. Given the length of my latest response I’ve decided to post it in the main section of the blog. [...]
Pingback by Response to Tariqnelson II « Lightshiner | September 3, 2006 |